Talk:Friend or Foe: Battle for the Justice

I think this page should be deleted as it's covering an unreleased mod. I don't think mods should be listed until they have been released. Does anyone agree? -- Malvineous 00:13, 19 February 2011 (GMT)

Yes of course. I even warned Szemigi about this numerous times, but he doesn't seem to want to listen. I'll delete this page within a week, and I'll now issue a time ban on Szemi. If you feel that this measure is too harsh you can remove his ban again, Malv. Tulip 12:07, 22 February 2011 (GMT)

I unblocked him - I try to avoid doing anything like that unless absolutely necessary (which so far has been never!) - especially when there's nothing on his user talk page, it's possible he never saw the requests otherwise. We'll give it a few days then delete this page, and whoever deletes it should leave a reason why on Szemigi's talk page. -- Malvineous 01:51, 26 February 2011 (GMT)

I understand where you guys are coming from concerning unreleased mods, but I am confused by its implementation. There are a handful of unreleased mods listed on this wiki right now. But at no point does there seem to be any discussion from either one of you on deleting any of these pages, deleting their listings from the vorticon and galaxy mod lists, or time banning the users that posted them. I have found 7 unreleased mods that are listed on the Wiki right now:

1. Commander Keen +: Printed in Pluto

2. Clones of Evil 2: Mort Times a Million

3. Lord of the Rings: The Shard of Narsil

4. Super Mario Brothers 2

5. Foray in the Forest

6. Hayro

7. The Second Biggest Sandwich I Ever Saw

Two of these mods are also being created by Szemigi. Not to mention that both Keen 8 and Keen 9 were both listed and had pages created for them a good year before both of them were ever released. Yet there was no discission for either one of those two pages or their listings to be deleted. So I guess the question I am trying to ask is why was Friend or Foe: Battle for the Justice singled out to be deleted and Szemigi banned when these other mods and the users that posted them were never even considered to be deleted or banned? It seems very inconsistent and unfair to single out one user and one mod and not the others. Syllypryde 22:43, 27 February 2011 (GMT)

Concerning Szemi being singled out, the issue is more than an incomplete mod being posted, but that on multiple occasions he's started mods, created pages, and then abandoned or never released those mods before starting a new mod project. This, I think, is the thinking behind removing all unreleased mod pages, that people will start a page about a mod and write all their ideas (the easiest part of modding) and then never produce anything. A standard might be for the mod to have a demo or even just screenshots, but then we're faced with the issue of people throwing something together with little effort to legitimize project pages. Rather than remove all incomplete project pages, we may just want to evaluate their legitimacy on an individual basis, based on the modder's reputation for finishing their projects and based on a degree of demonstrable progress (demos, screenshots). With that in mind, I'd suggest removing Printed in Pluto, Clones of Evil 2, shard of narsil, super mario bros 2, and Hayro. Ceilick 23:23, 27 February 2011 (GMT)

Thank you for clearing up the confusion for me. I have noticed that Szemigi has began multiple mods and never finished most of them. I also understand keeping pages for mods where the creator has shown they are serious about doing and completing their projects. You do not consider Hayro to be one of these projects? There is also a number of mods listed that were abandoned. Do you think those should also be deleted as well? Syllypryde 23:49, 27 February 2011 (GMT)

I don't doubt Eros' committment to his Hayro project, but the page currently consists of story and other ideas, which doesn't meet the 'demonstrable progress' requirement I suggested. As far as abandoned projects, my thinking is about the same: if there is more than literary content and that content is 'sufficiently good/ineresting', whatever that amounts to, then having a page seems okay to me. Just my thoughts, as I'm not an admin. Ceilick 00:19, 28 February 2011 (GMT)

Gargapplesauce should have a titlescreen in a few days, would that help a little? we're just appropriating the sprites for Hayro, shouldn't take too long. I think he's having problems with using modkeen, so can we have a bit of advice on how to use it? I've seen it myself, and i find it very... strange. --Eros 22:42, 28 February 2011 (GMT)

This is not about trying to bargain about keeping certain pages, I just didn't delete the Hayro page right away because it was the first time you did that, and you didn't know about that rule. Szemi on the other hand knew (and some of those discussions you didn't see, Sylly, were on msn), so I did. The main issue here is that we want to keep the wiki clean and clear, and in this context pages for unreleased Vorticons mods are still a bigger issue than for Galaxy mods, because the Galaxy mod list is a lot shorter than the Vorticons list. I've deleted a few pages already, and still haven't removed some stuff I have to admit, partly because I have overlooked them, partly because I'm having problems with my internet provider. Tulip 22:30, 5 March 2011 (GMT)

Just to be perfectly clear on this, the only reason why I haven't deleted other unreleased mods from the wiki is because I didn't know about them (like the other admins I try my best but don't have time to vet everything that ends up on here.) In time, hopefully, those pages will be deleted too. If you spot one, let one of the admins know. If you, as a modder, really want to put your ideas up somewhere while you're working on them then I suggest starting a thread over at the PCKF where people can discuss your ideas too. Hopefully this 'rule' will encourage people to actually work on their mod to get it to the point where it qualifies for inclusion in the wiki. After all, people don't browse the mods section to read stories, they browse to download mods they can play! -- Malvineous 06:49, 13 March 2011 (GMT)

Thank you for clarifying things. It was not my intention to instigate any debates or arguments on the Wiki. I just wanted to be clear on the 'rule' and now I am. Syllypryde 19:01, 2 April 2011 (GMT)