User talk:Zilem

Hi Zilem - I'm sorry but I have had to delete some of your Commander Kylie pages and graphics as they are against the KeenWiki policy. In order for a mod to be listed here it must be substantial (many new levels and/or graphics), so only changing one sprite is unfortunately not enough for it to be listed here. If we allowed that, we would be overrun by many mods almost the same as the original game. Likewise the Commander Kylie graphics are fanart, which belongs on other image sharing sites, and not here. You are most welcome to recreate a mod page if you use your Commander Kylie sprite in a proper mod, such as a level pack or a graphical pack, but whatever you decide to do with it, you'll have to mod most of the levels or most of the graphics (or even better, both) before it can be listed here. I am sorry about this but I hope you understand it is necessary to keep the quality of the mods we list to a high standard. -- Malvineous (talk) 12:08, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Wouldn't the mods qualify as skin mods? Not just one sprite is changed, but also most occurrences of the character in other graphics and text. This is pretty much like Mortimer McMire - The Armageddon Machine and Aliens Ate My Babysitter, added to KeenWiki five years ago. --Grandy02 (talk) 14:55, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Of course I'm open to what the community wants, however I don't believe these are substantial enough to be considered for inclusion on the wiki. I wasn't aware of the two mods you quote - now I know about them I believe they should be removed also, for the same reasons. Otherwise, where do you draw the line? I could publish a mod that did nothing except change the palette to black and white and call it a skin mod, but will anyone really play through the entire six games just because of this small change? I could also extract the modified Keen sprite from Episode X and put it back in the original game, and release that as a new skin mod, but wouldn't it be a bit pointless?

If we go down this path then you could reasonably expect every mod with a changed protagonist to come in two versions - the mod itself, and the original game with the new character. I think that will just result in unnecessary clutter. How many times do you really need to play through the original games with a different protagonist or enemy? In my opinion, these "skin mods" are more like parts in a construction set, where they can be used in the creation of bigger mods, but they shouldn't be considered complete mods in their own right. -- Malvineous (talk) 11:24, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Hm, what about a collective page for skin mods (that could also include the translations then)? I've to agree that it's hard to draw the line, and things like "play in CGA" or "play as Vorticon (Keen's sprites simply replaced by Vorticon's)" probably don't need their own pages. But I wouldn't like a complete exclusion of them, either. Not to mention that the wiki provides the downloads for all of them since more than two years. --Grandy02 (talk) 19:39, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

It's a bit hard to take the Removal of my mod serious, when you shot first and don't give me a chance to answer.

and you there after change the "Policy" by adding: "Fan art belongs elsewhere" and "Mods must be substantial"

it only makes me believe that you judged a Floppy by it's plastic Cover, without even reading the label!

Kylie is a Full conversion of the Keen Protagonist

in-level Sprite: 78 Frames, World Sprite: 44 Frames, Swim-level sprite: 7 Frames, level-Loading: 6, Dialog Portraits: 20, Fullscreens: 3

167 new Textures, for Keen 4 alone - Keen 5 (125) Keen 6 (125)

Kylie is a Mod, that makes you able to play Commander Keen as Female and she be added to any other Galaxy mods

that is the Idea behind Kylie. and the purpose of the Commander Kylie Mod.

The Difference Between a Mod and Fan art?, a Fan art is a Concept and a Mod is that Concept put into life.

Also, I have no idea of what "High standards" your talking about, It isn't reflected by the Mod archive, it is very varied

But if you want that "High" standard i suggest you do that mate, and apologize to others for removing their mod(s), chop! chop!

--Zilem (talk) 03:04, 14 August 2015 (GMT+1)

I'm sorry you have taken offence at the removal of your content, but you have to understand that the KeenWiki has been used in the past as a blog-style dumping ground for every little idea someone has had about a Keen mod. This very quickly makes it useless as a reference, when half the mods haven't been released, contain concept art only, or play exactly the same as the original games.

I understand you have changed a lot of images, and I did not "judge a floppy by its plastic cover" as I downloaded your mod and briefly played it to make sure I wasn't missing anything, but I only saw the original game levels and - apart from the protagonist - the original graphics too. It was no different to playing the original games. This is why the mod - in its current state - is not yet ready for inclusion here.

The reason why I updated the KeenWiki:Guidelines is because this policy has been in effect for some years now, and I was going to direct you to that page but I realised these points were missing - so I could hardly tell you off for not reading the rules if they are not there. I updated the page to make it clear for any future contributors. I am sorry you could not be made aware of this earlier, that is my fault for forgetting to write everything down so I apologise.

The high standard broadly refers to the amount of changes the mod introduces. Anyone can design one level, change one sprite, or import a new song into the game, but doing only this does not produce a mod that is very interesting to play. It is only when all these things are combined that an entirely new game is produced, and that is where the high standard comes from. It takes a lot of effort to replace all the graphics as I am sure you know. Designing new levels, graphics, patches, etc. all take a lot of effort. If we listed any old change someone made in five minutes, there would be no incentive to create something wonderful.

Be careful not to take the wrong message from all this. Your content was not removed because it was "wrong". What you have done so far is great - it is just not yet ready to be listed here. If you are willing to put the same amount of effort into creating some new levels and some more graphics, then everything can definitely be listed here! But, of course, if you aren't willing to create anything new to play through, then it is just the same as the last person dumping their ideas here and leaving someone else to pick up the pieces. So I hope you can understand then why we choose not to list these things until they are finished. People rarely pick up the pieces.

I hope you will show that I was wrong to delete the Commander Kylie pages, by turning it into a complete mod, with new levels, graphics and music, so it can be added back again. Otherwise, if you were just going to leave this for someone else to do, then I guess that means I was right to remove it after all.

-- Malvineous (talk) 11:24, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

You didn't directly remove my mod, it were never on this Wikia server, it were stored on my Site.

You just removed the Wikia-page for it, and the few pictures that i was unable to have loading off-site

I Can i can understand the issue with W.I.P. Mods or a Concept that not even testable...

Kylie were only listed as unfinished as i still had to add the skirt to Keen 4&6, but i currently don't have the time for that.

You look on Modding is a Bit strange, or is that only here on this Wikia?

Server issues something that makes more sense then your Modding bias?

something less dumb (no offense meant, but a bias like this is...)

That you call it "Policy" yet the page-tag is "Guidelines" is a tad misleading

No your could not, However you removed the Wikia-page of my mod anyway and thous changed it into "Shoot first ask questions later" which is the exact thing that offended me.

Everyone can make a level, sure. everyone can make a bad level, not everyone can make a good, interesting or a level you want to play over and over again with enjoyment.

You may think Keen is not Mod-modular, but it kinda is: Graphic/Sprites/Story, Music/Sound & Levels.

But if this Wikia for Mods, is not meant for information of mods, That is not a full package-mods and could have been released as a new game.

then what is the purpose of this Wikia?

So, You want me to to spend several days creating inferior levels and music?

for a Mod which purpose were a Female protagonist, that can be used and added to other mods.

Just to be able to list it here... a site that have much less traffic then mine. what is the point?

No, i cannot understand why you do not to list somethings near finished. while listing things that is clearly unfinished, and merely a concept.

This is far from my first mod, there are other ideas, Games and mod updates that i much rather use the time on.

then a meeting your standards for a Mod. to have it shown here.

That is one horrid attitude to Have!

I don't need to have a Wikia-page for my Mod(s), nor a space to have mods hosted, I've got my own.

if you don't want it here fine. but there is no need to be this righteous about it...

--Zilem (talk) 14:03, 19 August 2015 (GMT+1)