Talk:Atroxian Realm

Why do we consider AR as a Keen 4 mod?

Basically what the subject says. I know it started as a Keen 4 mod, but since it is now a source code mod, it doesn't make sense to call it Keen 4 mod anymore. I think it should be considered as a fangame, since it doesn't seem to patch the executable file and there is so much new stuff. NetKeen used some of the Keen:Galaxy code and is considered as a fangame in this wiki, so I don't see why can't we consider Atroxian Realm as a fangame too. If not, then I think calling it a Keen Dreams mod would make sense, since I think it used the Keen Dreams source code (although quite a lot is changed) and the files appear to use a ".CKD" file format. Quillax (talk) 02:54, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

This question has already been discussed on the forums. It's indeed a quite difficult question, but in conclusion this mod should be kept as a Keen 4 mod. Head over to the pckf for some closer inspections: Discussion on the pckf / alternative link.

Here are two developer statements concerning that topic. Gridlock stated on a similar question:

"[...] Because AR was a Keen 4 mod for the vast majority of its development, I've never really stopped thinking of it as a mod of that game, especially since so much of its design was informed by the affordances of Keen 4. And, really, though the engine changed, AR still uses plenty of resources that were modded from Keen 4.

But you are right, the end product itself isn't really a mod of Keen 4 at all. I'm only biased towards calling it that because that's how it was for nearly 5 years. It's really more of a new engine that cobbles together pieces from various sources, including K4. But then, what would you call it if not a mod?"

(Gridlock, Sep 26, 2016)

NY00123 replied as follows:

"[...] I guess it is still a Keen 4 mod in the sense that this is how it originally started, various creatures are based on Keen 4 specific creatures, etc.

On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure how much of the Keen Dreams part of the codebase (which isn't also found in Keen 4-6) was really left.

Let's remind that Atroxian Realm (as a source mod) is based, among other things, on the so-called "Keen Dreams - Unofficial Tech Demo". While about half of the tech demo's codebase is more-or-less grabbed off the Keen Dreams sources, the other half, the ID Engine, is taken off the Catacomb 3-D sources. Keen Dreams also has its revision of the ID Engine, it's just a few months earlier; And Cat3D's revision is much closer to Keen 4-6's.

A lot of Keen 4-6 was still missing, so lemm had to take advantage of some reverse-engineering work, including earlier Keen 5 efforts from the NetKeen and Omnispeak projects. A lot of the Keen Dreams specific parts were obviously replaced in the way."

(NY00123, Sep 28, 2016)

Nisaba (talk) 11:24, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

I checked out that topic. I still think it doesn't really make sense to call it a Keen 4 mod, but if that's what the majority of people want to refer it as, then so be it. Though, if that's going to be so, then I have a couple questions. Wouldn't NetKeen be considered as a Keen 5 mod, or a Galaxy mod, instead as a fangame? Also, as Gridlock said in that topic, what would a mod that uses Atroxian Realm's engine from start to finish be called? Calling that a Keen 4 mod would just seem silly. These might be difficult to figure out. Quillax (talk) 03:46, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I would suggest putting it under both catergories as the graphics are somewhat similar and the enemy behavior is close to the original. I don't know if you can do that, though... SodiumtheGlitcher (talk) 23:40, 17 November 2024 (GMT)

With this debate of whether or not Atroxian Realm (AR) is a Keen 4 mod, many here seem to think that it did start out as a Keen 4 mod but then it was released as a source code mod. This is false. When the full version (v1.0) of AR was released on January 15th, 2016 it was released as a Keen 4 patched mod, NOT a source code mod. Although I do have to note that a source code version of v1.0 was released later. The first version of AR as a source code mod (v1.1) was released on Keen Day in 2019 by Gridlock and K1n9_Duk3, over THREE YEARS after AR's initial release. Even then v1.1 still had a Keen 4 patched version and a source code version. v1.2 was released October 31st of 2019, again having a Keen 4 patched version and a source code version. v1.3 was released November 14th 2019, again having a Keen 4 patched version and a source code version. It was wasn't until it's final version (v1.4) was released on May 9th 2020, which K1n9_Duk3 initially called it an unofficial update, which Gridlock has since okayed, is now exclusively source code. If someone is going to use the faulty logic that AR is not a Keen 4 mod simply because it's final release is strictly source code, you have conveniently left out that fact that four different versions of this game have Keen 4 patched versions and are still available to download and play.

I could understand if all the Keen 4 elements were eliminated in the final source code making it a completely different game, but its transition from mod to source code still has the Keen 4 elements intact. The only things that the source code has changed is eliminate the memory issues, crash issues, made the game more stable, and added an items window to show everything available in each individual level. All the Keen 4 elements from the patched code are still intact in the source code.

The whole point of modding is to not only maintain that essence and Keenishness of all of the original Keen games, it was also to create fun and better Keen games. As long as the spirit of Keen is intact that is all that should matter. Syllypryde (talk) 21:34, 18 November 2024 (GMT)

@SodiumtheGlitcher: I believe it is possible to classify Atroxian Realm as both a Keen 4 mod and source code mod. If one were to add the Keen 4 mods category to the page, the mod would appear in both pictorial lists for Keen 4 mods and source code mods. The only thing about it that makes me reluctant to do so is that it would make Atroxian Realm count twice in the total mod count in the index page.

@Syllypryde: Where is this Keen 4 mod version you speak of? I checked the version 1.0 download link in both the KeenWiki article and PCKF thread, and there is no KEEN4E.EXE, nor a patch file. Not even the files have a CK4 file extension; it's CKD. I distinctively remember this being the case when I first downloaded it back in 2016. I also don't see the difference between the latest version and the original version, at least not in terms of the files available, so I'm not sure where you got that whole idea from. I'd also like to point out that the discussion here was first started in 2017, two years before v1.1 of the mod came out.

It is true that Atroxian Realm's development was largely influenced by the way Keen 4 works, and the final release is a reflection of that. However, the final release is not a patch that you apply to a copy of Keen 4. It can't be opened in level editors the same exact way you could with a Keen 4 mod (check page 2 of the PCKF thread, second post by Fleexy). It is a compilation of code based on reverse-engineered Galaxy/Dreams code and enemy behaviors written from scratch. If we're judging a mod by how many of the original elements are intact, then is NetKeen a Keen 5 mod for having a few Keen 5 elements left intact (e.g. Goplat pose) and using Keen 5 as a base? What about patched mods that change nearly the whole game, such as Sunset? Could that still be called a Keen 1 mod? If someone patches all of Keen 5 into a Keen 4 mod, then is it really a Keen 4 mod? I find this to be a very messy subject, and we could probably go on an eternal debate over it, but I think the simplest way to distinguish between patched mods and source code mods is that the former is distributed as patches for the vanilla exe, while the latter is newly compiled code with a new exe.

Your last paragraph on the point of modding could also apply to fangames, at least the ones that aim to recreate the Keen gameplay, like The Mystery of Isis II and Planet Cloudius IX. To me, modding is about using the original Keen engine and making a new game out of that, which applies to both patch and source mods. I see patch mods as working with a provided set of creatures and mechanics, changing some things if needed (or even all of it if you really want to), while source mods are an opportunity to explore brand new ideas created from scratch while using the Keen engine. In a way, source modding kinda blurs the line between mods and fangames. I think it doesn't help that KeenWiki and the whole modding scene started long before source modding was even considered a possibility. If modding had begun with source modding, I'd guarantee that instead of calling them Keen 4/5/6 mods, we'd call them all Galaxy mods and only use the episode identifier for levelpacks. Maybe. Quillax (talk) 08:10, 19 November 2024 (GMT)

" What about patched mods that change nearly the whole game, such as Sunset? Could that still be called a Keen 1 mod?"

Actually Keen Sunset is listed as a Keen 1 mod. You can look it up yourself on the Wiki. Syllypryde (talk) 19:43, 19 November 2024 (GMT)

Indeed. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to tell me with that point you just made, to be honest. It's always been a Keen 1 mod in my eyes. I should've worded that phrase better, asking "Can that no longer be called a Keen 1 mod".

I get your point that AR still has many elements from its Keen 4 mod iteration left intact. Heck, DarkAle's New Keen 5 Levelpack seems just like a Keen 5 levelpack, yet I decided to classify it under source mods. My line of thinking is that if that's considered a Keen 5 levelpack, and AR is a Keen 4 mod, then would Foray in the Forest be considered a Keen 4 mod too? If not, then why? Like AR, FitF started life as a Keen 4 mod, transitioned to a source mod, and kept some Keen 4 elements fairly intact. Yes, FitF had way more added after transition than AR, but is there an objective measure of that? Where would we draw the line? How much can you add or change until the source mod can no longer be assigned to a specific episode? Doesn't FitF have more in common with Keen 4 than, say, Kube? Do you see the problem here?

I've had a thought that instead of using patch file vs compiled code, judgement could be based on the file extensions. Like, if the source mod levelpacks by DarkAle and Ceilick use CK4 and CK5 for file extensions, then they could be tied to an episode number and still be classified as source mods via adding categories. AR and FitF would remain as source mods since they use CKD and CKS respectively. Only issue is that it can easily be cheated. Changing the file extensions and the code that reads them is very easy I imagine. Also, some patch mods change the file extensions too. And what would we make out of NetKeen? I've just recently moved that from a fangame to a source mod, since it uses the core Galaxy code.

So far, I find it easiest and the least troublesome to draw the line between episode-specific mods and source mods on whether they're distributed as patches or compiled code. If you find that weird or stupid, then I understand. K1n9_Duk3 once said that classifying mods under a specific episode is only necessary because you need a copy of that episode for the mod to work, and I agree. To run Keen Asylum you need a copy of the Keen 5 exe, but you don't need one for DarkAle's levelpack, nor Ceilick's, as their levelpacks are provided with a brand new exe compiled from a new source. K1n9_Duk3 also stated that you could consider the official Keen games to be mods of each other, which is true if you really want to stretch it. For the average person who comes here to download a mod, I think it's best to organize it so that they can go "This is a Keen 4 mod because it needs some Keen 4 files to work, and I may have to supply them if the download doesn't have them," if you know what I mean. Maybe there's a better way of doing this? Perhaps a compromise could be made? Quillax (talk) 09:20, 21 November 2024 (GMT)

Actually what you just explained and what K1n9_Duk3 corroborates makes perfect sense to me. If you need the execute file from an official Keen game to run the mod than it is a mod of that game. Just because a few of us still see certain mods as Keen 4 or otherwise doesn't mean they have to classified as such on the Wiki. I have always been perfectly fine with source code mods having their own category. But I am vehemently opposed to calling them fan games for 2 reasons: 1) As I said before most fan games are shite and lumping source code mods in with them in my opinion just cheapens their greatness and 2) Despite source code mods using their own execute file, they still use the same audioct, audiohed, config, egadict, egagraph, egahead, gamemaps, maphead, etc. files as the official Keen games. Obviously they have been modified and their file extensions changed. As long as source code mods use the same general files as the original games they should be source code mods. Fan games should be classified as such if they use a completely different engine and are created with completely different files, especially if they deviate significantly from the gameplay of the original and modded Keen games. Syllypryde (talk) 19:01, 21 November 2024 (GMT)

I agree with moving NetKeen to a source code mod. It's not necessarily a source code mod, but I still think that's fine. For DarkAle's Keen 5 Levelpack, I would move that back to Keen 5 mods because, while it is source code, it only adds a few extra graphics and plays exactly like any other levepack would. So I would move it back. For FitF, I've never actually played it, but from what I've seen, it's not a K4 mod anymore in my opinion. Way too much has changed from the original Keen 4 code to be classified as Keen 4, while in Atroxian Realm's case, not much was changed when it became a source code mod (as far as my knowledge, at least). This is a very tough question, but I think it depends on how much does it seem like and keep elements from the original game. For stuff like Kube, that never seemed like it belonged in any mod category, because other than the Keen sprite, it looks nothing like Keen to me. Other Keen 4 mods do stuff like this as well, but I still feel like Atroxian Realm comes across as more of a Keen 4 mod than a source mod to me, because, like I've said, it retains most of the game's original things, like sprite behavior, and doesn't really change anything too significant to classify it as not a normal Keen mod. SodiumtheGlitcher (talk) 19:45, 21 November 2024 (GMT)

About items

As for the items should we leave the old system or use {{ItemList}}?--DarkAle (talk) 19:29, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

The "new system" is still under construction. I'd say let's wait until decisions are made before actually updating item sections.

-- Nisaba (talk) 17:09, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Point counts

Can someone finish the point counts for all levels past Emerald Canyon? The point counts aren't present in the later levels... SodiumtheGlitcher (talk) 02:08, 18 November 2024 (GMT)

All the available set point totals that are present have already been added to all the levels. Sky Sanctum, Realm Reactor and both Kridonea Ruins have no points available. In Crystal Sanctuary you might have noticed that all the points available are all question marks? When you collect a question mark you get a completely random bonus. They could be 100-5,000 points, a spark or even an extra life. It is impossible to determine the total number of points in Crystal Sanctuary because the points will be completely random every time you play the level. The High Scores which is unreachable has no points either. I noticed I forgot to put zeros for the points and ammo for the High Scores so I will add those now. The unused levels are not playable so there is no point in adding points or ammo for those levels. Syllypryde (talk) 17:16, 18 November 2024 (GMT)

I meant on the individual pages with info about the level and quantities of each item (like the Emerald Canyon page I linked above, and like the original levels). I was wanting someone to fix those. SodiumtheGlitcher (talk) 18:55, 18 November 2024 (GMT)