Talk:Main Page
For older messages, please see the archived version as at July 2010
On game engine names
In the modding tools section of the main page, it is stated: "Other (Keen Dreams, non-Keen engines)", but we are all pretty sure Keen Dreams engine and Keen: Galaxy engine are almost the same! Both share the EGAGRAPH and GAMEMAPS format, and the game engine technology such as goplats (minecart in KDR seems to be one), poles, hanging onto ledges, etc. So, in my opinion, the K: Modding tools classification should be fixed as this needs to be discussed before breaking all existing links. There are already three Keen Dreams modding tools, which are unofficial ModKeen 2.0.1 hack by MultiMania, KDRPatch by MultiMania and TED5 by John Romero. --Shadow Master 17:53, 5 July 2007 (GMT)
- The engines are indeed similar, but as far as I'm aware you can't take a Keen 4-6 modding tool (like the original ModKeen for example) and use it unchanged with Keen Dreams. That's why the categories are separate. A Keen4 modding tool will work with Keen5, but not necessarily with Dreams. -- Malvineous 09:29, 10 July 2007 (GMT)
- --Just what do we mean by 'similar' here? Certainly a lot of code is the same in both engines, but there are significant differences, Dreams uses serveal exotic forms of compression for levels and images, has much less advanced Keen movement code (No pogo, simple jump physics), I can't find any music playing code... it reads to me much like a beta of the Galaxy engine, but een games like Wolfenstein 3D use an awful lot of Keen Galaxy stuff. Also, TED5 needs to be run with an additional program (KDLEV) before it will work with Keen Dreams --Levellass 05:13, 13 July 2010 (GMT)
- Similar in that they appear to share many features on the surface, but as you have also said, very different technically. BTW you might want to check the dates on these messages, this discussion is over three years old now :-) -- Malvineous 10:04, 13 July 2010 (GMT)
- --Just what do we mean by 'similar' here? Certainly a lot of code is the same in both engines, but there are significant differences, Dreams uses serveal exotic forms of compression for levels and images, has much less advanced Keen movement code (No pogo, simple jump physics), I can't find any music playing code... it reads to me much like a beta of the Galaxy engine, but een games like Wolfenstein 3D use an awful lot of Keen Galaxy stuff. Also, TED5 needs to be run with an additional program (KDLEV) before it will work with Keen Dreams --Levellass 05:13, 13 July 2010 (GMT)
Separate pages for Keen GBC creatures/items with the same name as an original creature?
I see that people have been adding Keen GBC creature/item information to the bottom of previous articles if creatures/items with the same name or a very similar name already exists. However I think they should be separate just like we keep the Vorticon Grunt from Keen 2 and Keen 3 separate and the Lollipop from Keen 1 and Keen Dreams separated. Any takes? --Litude 15:54, 18 June 2010 (GMT)
- This makes sense to me...especially as the GBC equivalents of enemies often have very different behaviors from the original versions (especially as compared to the grunts in Keen 2 and 3.) --StupidBunny 04:17, 19 June 2010 (GMT)
- I think most Keen fans would rather pretend the GBC version didn't exist, so that's probably one of the worst maintained parts of the wiki - but I'd certainly be happy if I didn't have to see any GBC stuff when I'm browsing the "legitimate" episodes :-) -- Malvineous 14:07, 11 July 2010 (GMT)
- KGBC IS legitimate - it's a spin-off, like Keen Dreams. -- DHeadshot 13:28, 12 July 2010 (GMT)
- Not when Tom Hall, the original ideas man behind Commander Keen, wasn't involved in its creation and said that he doesn't consider it part of the official game series. -- Malvineous 22:31, 12 July 2010 (GMT)
- He doesn't recognise any of the Fan Games either... -- DHeadshot 12:09, 13 July 2010 (GMT)
- No, but fangames don't try to be considered as official releases either. -- Malvineous 22:32, 13 July 2010 (GMT)
- Exactly. Keen GBC is a stain on the name of Commander Keen, and everything about it should be seperated... GARGapplesauce 18:12, 23 October 2010 (GMT)
- No, Keen GBC is awesome. End of Story. However, I can see why seperating them makes sense since the Vorticons have seperate pages for different games... -- DHeadshot 18:34, 23 October 2010 (GMT)
- Alright, I guess we'll have to have our own opinions on this- and actually, Keen GBC would have been awesome, had the gameplay actually worked, thats MY problem with it... But either way we are agreeing about separating them, and i sould get started on that if anyone wants. Just message me if you want me to! : ) GARGapplesauce 21:56, 23 October 2010 (GMT)
- No, Keen GBC is awesome. End of Story. However, I can see why seperating them makes sense since the Vorticons have seperate pages for different games... -- DHeadshot 18:34, 23 October 2010 (GMT)
- Exactly. Keen GBC is a stain on the name of Commander Keen, and everything about it should be seperated... GARGapplesauce 18:12, 23 October 2010 (GMT)
- No, but fangames don't try to be considered as official releases either. -- Malvineous 22:32, 13 July 2010 (GMT)
- He doesn't recognise any of the Fan Games either... -- DHeadshot 12:09, 13 July 2010 (GMT)
- Not when Tom Hall, the original ideas man behind Commander Keen, wasn't involved in its creation and said that he doesn't consider it part of the official game series. -- Malvineous 22:31, 12 July 2010 (GMT)
- KGBC IS legitimate - it's a spin-off, like Keen Dreams. -- DHeadshot 13:28, 12 July 2010 (GMT)
- I think most Keen fans would rather pretend the GBC version didn't exist, so that's probably one of the worst maintained parts of the wiki - but I'd certainly be happy if I didn't have to see any GBC stuff when I'm browsing the "legitimate" episodes :-) -- Malvineous 14:07, 11 July 2010 (GMT)
Wiki headers
Should we follow Wikipedia's lead in calling the section headers "Article" and "Discussion" instead of "page" and "discussion"? I think it would make the Wiki look all the more professional. -- DHeadshot 12:02, 12 September 2010 (GMT)
- I agree! GARGapplesauce 21:57, 23 October 2010 (GMT)
New Template
I'd like to make a "Imagemap" for the pages Krodacia and Calidune. Would it be possible for someone to add this template to the wiki, or find some way to make it work? For anyone who doesn't know, the Imagemap would allow a visitor to the page to click on a part of the world Map image, where a level entrance is shown, and go to the page for that level instantly. These are used on Wikipedia, and are quite handy... If anyone can do this, or at least give me some info. on it, please do! More info on Imagemaps:[1] [2] GARGapplesauce 04:13, 10 October 2010 (GMT)
- Theoretically any HTML can be embedded into a Wiki template - if you want to learn how to do it, go ahead! -- DHeadshot 12:39, 10 October 2010 (GMT)
- Thank you; but how would I go about doing that? GARGapplesauce 17:12, 10 October 2010 (GMT)
Site Revision...
I was just curious if it might be possible to put some revisions on the site. My main idea was that we create some standard formats that each type of page has to have, sections, etc. This would make the site a lot more uniform. I could get started on editing some pages. An example would be for levels: Sections could be Descriptions, Mistakes, Walkthrough, etc., in addition to the level box... Right now, different pages all have different sections, and its highly random. If anyone thinks its a good idea, just say the word. GARGapplesauce 03:53, 10 December 2010 (GMT)
- Yes I think this would be a great idea! Might be best to pick one page first (one with lots of info/sections) and "fix" that, then we can discuss if that's the best style. Once we've agreed on that we can proceed with making the rest of the pages look the same. -- Malvineous 07:02, 10 December 2010 (GMT)
- Okay! Great, I think I'll start with a creature page. Probably the bounder. It'll be done soon-ish GARGapplesauce 23:17, 10 December 2010 (GMT)
- EDIT: Bounder is done- check it out and tell me what you think!!! GARGapplesauce 03:55, 11 December 2010 (GMT)
- Looks good - a few suggestions: Saying "click here" is considered bad web design, as it assumes people are browsing the web with a monitor and a mouse which is not always the case - although perhaps this is a moot point as I don't think there is enough content to justify a Keen 4 and Keen GBC version of the creatures shared between episodes. Could it be done by simply pointing out the differences in the text where they exist? Also I'm a little unsure whether it is necessary to have so many headings - the article is almost entirely headings at the moment! I don't think there is enough content to fill out each heading (for example I would expect 1-2 paragraphs of content on a topic before it would be worth getting its own heading.) You might want to brush up a little on wikicode and styling too - horizontal lines are seldom used (especially not two in a row) and there are proper codes to create bullet lists. Otherwise it's a great start and I look forward to the next revision! -- Malvineous 10:21, 11 December 2010 (GMT)
- Alright, I'll make some changes. I only separated the pages because we had discussed so above, as there are some differences between them... I'll see, but its your descision ultimately. I'm just here to help! GARGapplesauce 02:38, 12 December 2010 (GMT)
- EDIT: Template 2 is out. Tell me what ya' think!! More info, less sections, less lines, GBC included in page. We can delete the GBC page if you like. GARGapplesauce 03:34, 12 December 2010 (GMT)
- Looks good - a few suggestions: Saying "click here" is considered bad web design, as it assumes people are browsing the web with a monitor and a mouse which is not always the case - although perhaps this is a moot point as I don't think there is enough content to justify a Keen 4 and Keen GBC version of the creatures shared between episodes. Could it be done by simply pointing out the differences in the text where they exist? Also I'm a little unsure whether it is necessary to have so many headings - the article is almost entirely headings at the moment! I don't think there is enough content to fill out each heading (for example I would expect 1-2 paragraphs of content on a topic before it would be worth getting its own heading.) You might want to brush up a little on wikicode and styling too - horizontal lines are seldom used (especially not two in a row) and there are proper codes to create bullet lists. Otherwise it's a great start and I look forward to the next revision! -- Malvineous 10:21, 11 December 2010 (GMT)
- EDIT: Bounder is done- check it out and tell me what you think!!! GARGapplesauce 03:55, 11 December 2010 (GMT)
- Okay! Great, I think I'll start with a creature page. Probably the bounder. It'll be done soon-ish GARGapplesauce 23:17, 10 December 2010 (GMT)
- Oh sorry I'd forgotten about the discussion with the separate GBC pages. Well the main reason I was against a split is that I don't think there's enough content to create a separate page, but if you think there are enough things to say then by all means have a separate page for the GBC stuff. I wonder whether we should remove the 'diet' section? Most of that stuff is made up, originally to make the articles more interesting, but since it's not really official maybe we should remove it? Same goes for that trivia one with citation needed. BTW you can also frame images with a caption, so you can neaten up that comment about what the Bounder looks like in Keen GBC. -- Malvineous 05:12, 13 December 2010 (GMT)
- Yeah, I know about the frame, but since the image is so small, it cuts off the text. I tried scaling the image up, but it wouldn't work. As for the bounder racing, I wondered where that Garg came from. Same with the diet, since the teeth part can be moved to the biology main section. I can remove the... questionable comments, and we can go on a page-by-page basis for Keen GBC pages, although I think one or the other would help the whole "unity" thing. Your call on that, I guess. Anyway, thanks, and we can hopefully come up with a final template after the next edit. I look forward to getting all of the templates chosen, because I think this will help the wiki a lot. More professional, etc. Thanks again, GARGapplesauce 05:19, 13 December 2010 (GMT)
- Done, I guess. To your approval, I hope. GARGapplesauce 02:37, 14 December 2010 (GMT)
- Ok, I've tidied it up a bit and fully separated the GBC version. I'm still not convinced there is enough information to populate the GBC page, but perhaps DHeadshot will have a go - he seems to be the only one interested in that episode ;-) -- Malvineous 01:13, 19 December 2010 (GMT)
- Alright, it looks great, and I love the new templates. So are we good to go, working page format? Is editing a go? Am I asking too many questions? :-) GARGapplesauce 03:17, 19 December 2010 (GMT)
- Well I'm happy with it if you want to start! Perhaps start with a smaller sample like all the Keen 4 creatures, so we can confirm it will work before getting too far advanced. -- Malvineous 06:11, 19 December 2010 (GMT)
- Will Do!!!!!!!! GARGapplesauce 18:45, 20 December 2010 (GMT)
- Well I'm happy with it if you want to start! Perhaps start with a smaller sample like all the Keen 4 creatures, so we can confirm it will work before getting too far advanced. -- Malvineous 06:11, 19 December 2010 (GMT)
- Alright, it looks great, and I love the new templates. So are we good to go, working page format? Is editing a go? Am I asking too many questions? :-) GARGapplesauce 03:17, 19 December 2010 (GMT)
- Ok, I've tidied it up a bit and fully separated the GBC version. I'm still not convinced there is enough information to populate the GBC page, but perhaps DHeadshot will have a go - he seems to be the only one interested in that episode ;-) -- Malvineous 01:13, 19 December 2010 (GMT)
- Done, I guess. To your approval, I hope. GARGapplesauce 02:37, 14 December 2010 (GMT)
- Yeah, I know about the frame, but since the image is so small, it cuts off the text. I tried scaling the image up, but it wouldn't work. As for the bounder racing, I wondered where that Garg came from. Same with the diet, since the teeth part can be moved to the biology main section. I can remove the... questionable comments, and we can go on a page-by-page basis for Keen GBC pages, although I think one or the other would help the whole "unity" thing. Your call on that, I guess. Anyway, thanks, and we can hopefully come up with a final template after the next edit. I look forward to getting all of the templates chosen, because I think this will help the wiki a lot. More professional, etc. Thanks again, GARGapplesauce 05:19, 13 December 2010 (GMT)
- Oh sorry I'd forgotten about the discussion with the separate GBC pages. Well the main reason I was against a split is that I don't think there's enough content to create a separate page, but if you think there are enough things to say then by all means have a separate page for the GBC stuff. I wonder whether we should remove the 'diet' section? Most of that stuff is made up, originally to make the articles more interesting, but since it's not really official maybe we should remove it? Same goes for that trivia one with citation needed. BTW you can also frame images with a caption, so you can neaten up that comment about what the Bounder looks like in Keen GBC. -- Malvineous 05:12, 13 December 2010 (GMT)
Fan images gallery
Shall we create a page with gallery of fan images? – Illidan5 11:12, 19 March 2011 (GMT)
- This has been discussed in the past and it was decided that, due to the relatively unlimited amount of fan art there could be, it would be better to keep it to dedicated image sharing sites such as DeviantArt. But you can certainly add links to these sites (not individual images) to the KeenWiki:Community Portal page. -- Malvineous 02:24, 20 March 2011 (GMT)
Links
There should be a link to the page about Commander Keen on the welcome page. Just do the usual square brackets around the first reference of the Commander Keen name and all should be 'right. Kuliwil 14:18, 12 June 2011 (GMT)
Side Panel Cleanup and Articles Section
I think the side panel could use some cleanup.
- "In progress" fangames needs to be linked to "In Development" fan games. The link should probably be renamed to "In Development" as well.
- "Hints and Tips" seems like it belong in the index section.
- "Tricks" can be removed since it is contained within "Hints and Tips".
- "Tutorials" belongs on the panel somewhere, likely misc.
- Is there a place on the wiki for general articles about Keen modding/game making? I'm thinking of things that aren't so much tutorials but on general information and advice, such as Andrew Durdin's Plumbing the Depths of Keen, Xky's Nomenclature, and (pending feedback) some of my own work? An 'Articles' category in the misc section might suffice for this.
Ceilick 20:26, 16 July 2011 (GMT)
- Done. I added Tutorials to the index section otherwise it would've been the only item in Misc. I think it would be better to put technical articles about modding and file formats onto the ModdingWiki instead, as there will likely be information common between Keen and other games (such as TED5 setup.) But articles like Xky's on naming creatures could really go anywhere. If it's rewritten in a more generic (less Keen specific) way, it would be suitable for any number of different games, so I think the ModdingWiki would be best. -- Malvineous 02:10, 17 July 2011 (GMT)
- Okay, sounds great. One last thing: the "Fan Games" box on the main page, not the side panel, still reads and links to "In progress fan games". Ceilick 07:39, 17 July 2011 (GMT)
- Oh forgot about that, thanks! -- Malvineous 08:43, 17 July 2011 (GMT)
"Other Mods" Link
The "Other Mods" link is described as "(Keen Dreams, non-Keen engines)", but only links to the Other mods page, which only covers non-Keen engines, with Keen Dreams mods having their own page. Perhaps another link for Keen Dreams Mods should be added? -- DHeadshot (talk) 21:46, 5 February 2023 (GMT)
- Very good point! I ended up redesigning the whole page, but hopefully now Dreams mods aren't disadvantaged! -- Malvineous (talk) 11:12, 6 February 2023 (GMT)
Keen VR screenshot
This screenshot appears to be related to a Commander Keen VR game. However, the game is not available for download, as confirmed by one of the comments in the video linked. Since KeenWiki doesn't allow mods/fangames that have no available download, it's ironic to have a screenshot of a game that can't have a KeenWiki article. The old Keen Dreams 3D screenshot used to represent fangames in the main page may not have come from a famous game, but it's different enough to not be mistaken for a mod.
If not Keen Dreams 3D, then how about Keen 2.5D? It was very popular back in its day, although I don't know how well that screenshot would look downsized in the main page. Commander Keen 64 could fit, but I'm not sure about the idea of using a screenshot from an incomplete game. Otherwise, the only popular fangames I can think of are Commander Keen 2000, The Mystery of Isis II, NetKeen, The Rule of a Yorp's Dinner, and Dopefish Forever, all of which resemble the original Keen games and mods too much to exemplify the "Want a bigger change" bit (aside from Isis II, maybe... but that one's incomplete).
Any thoughts? Quinton (talk) 09:35, 26 January 2024 (GMT)
- I've always found this screenshot to be an odd choice as well. Keen 2.5D and Keen 64 would be my main picks, or maybe Planet Cloudius IX? I really don't see how popularity should be a factor. The main factors should be if it's easy to tell that it's not modified from the originals, and having a polished look (as much as I love The Games Factory type stuff, they probably wouldn't be a great first impression).
Only slightly related, but Keen dabbing in the Mods image has always rubbed me the wrong way. It has a very "fellow kids" energy to it. Can't he be giving a thumbs up instead or something? Pandakeen (talk) 18:28, 26 January 2024 (GMT)
- Well, while we're figuring things out, I just deleted this screenshot and put back the Keen Dreams 3D screenshot into the main page for now. I think that game is a good illustration of "Want a bigger change", and it's easy to make out the characters in a small size. I tried putting in a Keen 2.5D screenshot, but the characters don't pop out very well in such a small size I think. The Planet Cloudius IX screenshot looks fine and might be a good pick, although I'm not exactly sure about the usage of ripped graphics from a non-Keen game. Maybe we should have a discussion on PCKF about what screenshot should be used to represent fangames? Perhaps a poll?
- I completely agree with you on the Mods image. It feels wrong to have something hip looking in the main page. I also always felt that it's too big and overcrowded compared to the other images used, which are smaller and focused on one or two subjects. Granted, one could argue that the Fangames and Tools images are unfocused, but I'd say the former (with the Keen Dreams 3D screenshot) works with two instantly prominent subjects and the latter works by illustrating how Keen editing works. I don't know, I sometimes imagine the Mods image as Galaxy Xky Keen walking as he is being followed by a few (no more than three) creatures from other Galaxy mods (and Vorticons mods?), although I feel like just having the Krodacian works fine. Quinton (talk) 08:36, 27 January 2024 (GMT)
- I just replaced the dabbing Keen with one of his original sprites. I tried making him give a thumbs up, but I couldn't get it to look good. Any thoughts on the image now? (Another idea I had for a Mods image would be an Arachnut transitioning into a Krodacian midway, kind of like the Mods button in my website.) Quinton (talk) 21:04, 18 February 2024 (GMT)